EPISODE FIFTEEN

Please note this is a verbatim transcription from the original audio and therefore there may be some minor grammatical errors.

Andy Griffiths 

Welcome to this episode of The tickety boo podcast. In this episode, we’re going to explore the fascinating topic of self identity and how it can impact our mental health. Have you ever stopped to think how about how you perceive yourself? What makes you unique? What makes you different from others? And what gives you your sense of self? Well, these are questions that we all struggle with at certain points in our lives, and they can, over time have a significant impact on our mental well being. In today’s episode, we’ll be discussing the importance of having a strong sense of self, how our upbringing and life experiences shape, our identity, and how negative self perceptions can lead to mental health issues such as anxiety and depression. We’ll also be sharing some practical tips and strategies to help you build a positive sense of self and improve your overall mental health and wellbeing. So whether you’re struggling with your sense of self was simply interested in learning more about this fantastic topic. You won’t want to miss this episode. Hi, Suzanne, how you doing?

Suzanne Campbell 

I’m doing good. I’m doing good. It’s been a busy week, it’s been great.

Andy Griffiths 

I’m looking forward to this one today. I’m not quite sure where it’s gonna go. But it’s, it’s such a big topic. We’ve got some questions that we definitely want to build into the show. So really like to have a chat with you and kind of get your perspective. On this, I’ll throw in some questions that we’ve got as well. And we’ll see what we can do to make sure that the people listening, don’t tune out. Let’s keep them there with us. So I thought what we would do is initially start off with talking about how the roles we take on in our life, impact our sense of self, you know, all the different roles that will play through through through different points. You know, maybe from your perspective, you can talk about some of the roles and your sort of how things have changed for you what you felt because I’ve got very, I’ve sort of in my mind, I’ve got an idea of where I’m going with this, but I’m really interested to hear your so come on, let’s let’s see where you’re gonna take us with this,

Suzanne Campbell 

the fundamentality moment. So that is really interesting, because we the only person is with us for our entire lives as ourselves. So and they also say that if you don’t continue to grow, then we don’t evolve. So it’s either sort of evolve or result revolve, revolve. So, them to grow or continue in stay the same. And there’s very little opportunity in life really for this to continue and stay the same. Because with every new life experience is almost like a new skill set has been added a new experience has been added a new set of emotions, that’s been added to us. So that sense of self will continue to grow. And sometimes we want to take things with us that we actually love about ourselves. And sometimes we want to leave stuff behind. Because we’re all very different people I was I was in Saudi Arabia, and I was a nightmare sister, I was just an absolute horror. And there’s a lot of that time of my life, that version of me, right, if you like that I leave behind. So we all have versions, and we all grow and evolve through those versions. And I think as I said in that last intro, I think I’m on version 17, possibly even more than that.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah. Do you think though, we don’t always recognize that were transitioning to different versions of ourselves, you know, this level of awareness of, I’m this person today. For me, I think personally, I noticed when unwanted behaviors or responses kept cropping up in my life, and they were normally in conflict with who I thought I was right? At that point of time. So even though logically we you know, you know, in your mind that your situation has changed, it can be really difficult to get that change to actually sink in, and for you to to adapt to it, you know, whether that’s, you know, from being a parent or having a certain role or being in a partnership or having a job. It’s, you know, things are changing for you but actually adapting. And I don’t know, I suppose a bit like a chameleon blending into this new version. Oh, absolutely.

Suzanne Campbell 

Yeah, absolutely. So as we go through, some of them can be very subtle and it just evolves on a daily basis. Other things are really huge. And our life’s like a really big transition, like being redundant and losing that sort of status of a role, or becoming married or getting divorced or becoming a parent for the first time. These are indeed losing a loved one, these are huge transitions, and sometimes you don’t really get the opportunity to adjust. So is it can be very unfamiliar. And that’s what you’re seeing, you know, it’s when we, when we grow, and when we learn new skills, it can feel uncomfortable, yeah, it can feel uncomfortable. But really, what we want to do is continue to develop into those into that role, and learn and give ourselves permission to be to be allowed noted, because none of us are born masters, or any of these rules or labels that we want. What about

Andy Griffiths 

if some of these changes are negative? Like you said, You’ve been made redundant? Do you then drop into the next version of yourself with this new belief of I’m not good enough? They didn’t want me, I’m not going to get another job. This is the end for me, who am I now because so much of so many of us do identify with the positions and the title? So do you feel that this can happen both in a negative way? You know, so we transition to the next version of ourselves. But our next version of ourselves isn’t isn’t a healthy one, or is not in a good place?

Suzanne Campbell 

Absolutely. Everybody responds to it in a very different way. Depending on your beliefs and your experiences, and sort of certainly st your mindset, and where you are in your life. For me being made redundant was a bit of a shock. But it was one of the best things that came to me and I play my example is, I was like, Oh, this is this is an amazing opportunity, I’m going to have a gap here, I’m going to afford myself to do the things that I never did when I was younger. Whereas my parents, and I love them and the most supportive people ever, they were more of the different generation, but it was like, oh, what happens now. And they were creating all of this concern, not to me, but between themselves, about what happens now and all the rest of it, quit as I was more, this is an amazing opportunity for me. Because so many of us, we grew up and we take job after job after job and get interviewed for it. And actually, it’s not necessarily who we wanted to go or what we wanted to do or who we wanted to be. Some of us end up in management or directors or executive or, or, you know, and it’s not who we want to be and it’s a massive opportunity to write a new script and become a new version of yourself that very much how you respond to that situation depends in and your emotional intelligence and and how you react to life in general.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, I mean, we talk we use the example there have been made redundant, but you know, there’s many different you know, I think of you know, a mom, who’s maybe had a career or stepped out of the corporate world, or, or any kind of job to now be mom. So, in a way, they sort of put their sense of self on hold. To bring up a family. But when that chapter comes to, you never gonna stop being a mom, but you know, kids grow up, they, they become more independent, they’re gonna do their own things. And then you kind of merge into this next version of yourself. Like I was a mom, I am a mum, but my role as a mom has now changed. What where do I go? What what do I do? You know, that’s another example of how you can kind of lose your sense of self through a positive set of circumstances, circumstances, assuming that you know, you wanted it wanted a family, but also is that version of yourself, or you know, that role changes and comes to an end? And you now need to step into what you know, are you going to go back into the corporate world? Are you going to stay at home? Or are you going to go and get a part time job? That can be difficult as well? Surely.

Suzanne Campbell 

Yeah, I don’t have much experience of that. I was saying I was the breadwinner. It was my my then husband. That was the stay at home parent. So that’s the decision that worked for us. And because I did have a corporate career in the management team, I went straight back to work. So it’s not something I’ve really had to face. I did have a bit of guilt about about going back. However, my version of me didn’t necessarily transition that much during that period. I just it was outside of work that the biggest transition happened. Yeah,

Andy Griffiths 

yeah. So what do you feel? Or how do you feel that our upbringing kind of influences our sense of self? You know, if you get if you get to people from very different backgrounds, you know, their sense of self is probably going to be it It’s gonna be very different. And obviously, our parents, the people around us, certainly we, you know, those formative years, definitely play a role in shaping our sense of self. You know, it’s, we play various roles don’t we know from being a child to then go to school and being a student and getting good marks to being a friend, to being a co worker to being you know, what, we play all these different roles. But surely, before we take any of those roles, the things that happen to us earlier in life, influence our thought patterns as we go through that process.

Suzanne Campbell 

Yeah, there’s I mean, you’ve got all of the different sort of attachment styles and also need to versus nurture. There’s a great analogy out there about parents who two sons who said, I had a drug addict father, and one of them went down the route of becoming a drug addict themself, and the other one never touched drugs. And both of them had the exact same answer as to why they chose that path and life and it was more with the way my father was. And my childhood experience was, what other option to have. So there’s so many different possibilities and permutations within that, whether it’s not your attachment style outlook, or anything like that, or indeed, to a certain extent, whether you’re first born or you’re a middle child, or you’re the youngest, or if you’re a solo child. Yeah, yeah, everything, everything is different. So I think the main thing is, understanding who you are, and that you are worth it. So if you’ve had that beliefs from your younger, that you’re worse that and that you are never made to feel guilty or shamed for any of the decisions that you take, or even the mistakes. I mean, we’re all learners. But sometimes parents don’t afford the kids the ability to have that. So it depends very much on how you were raised.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when we perform well, we feel like you know, we’ve achieved something. But when things don’t quite go to plan, we kind of feel a sense of inadequacy, a sense of shame, and that doesn’t matter how old you are, or where you are in life. But I know for me, my childhood, definitely had a major part to play in my in my sense of self worth, you know, coming from coming from a home where there was divorce at a very early age. And I didn’t really understand what was going on. I couldn’t see it at the time, but I can see it now that I needed people to like me, because there was this fear of rejection or not being good enough or not being liked. So that version, you know, whether you were a kid playing in the playground, or you were going to an out of school activity, or anti mates house, you had to be the popular one. But in reality, you can’t always be the popular one, you know, and that creates lots of pressure on yourself lots of anxiety, lots of sorts of people pleasing type traits. Now, that sense of self was projected onto me, I didn’t choose to tell you that my environment programmed me to be like that. And obviously, when you’re in the midst of that, as a child, you don’t, you’re not aware. That’s what you’re doing. Because this is unconscious stuff, isn’t it? You know, it’s absolutely yeah, below the surface.

Suzanne Campbell 

And that’s when, when you get to that stage in life, when you’ve passed the the transition stage into adulthood, that’s when you you do become more aware of your self worth and your self esteem, if you’ve not had any sort of childhood traumas. And having that self trust and self esteem and knowing that you’re worth it. And then again, understanding of who I am, there’s an amazing song. That league it’s worth Thomas called, who I’m not. And I say, it goes through the whole stages of understanding, it’s difficult to understand who you are. I am a twins, country singers. And it’s difficult to understand who you are. But I know that who I’m not. So its own that journey, isn’t it to the understanding of who you are. And again, that will change as you grow through life and you gain more experiences. Because the who I’m not, it just really struck a chord with me because our brain is a thinker. prover, isn’t it? So if we think about something, so sometimes it’s easier, and it’s also designed to look negatively at situations in order to keep us safe. But sometimes when we don’t know who we are, if we went to have a starting point, it’s easier to see with whom or not. So then reframe it to see right okay, well, these are these are all the things I’m not what’s the opposite of that, or what is it? I want to be or who do I think I am?

Andy Griffiths 

And I think well, certainly for me, and I’m still figuring this stuff out. It’s you know, it It’s a journey. I think a lot of people sense things about themselves, but kind of go was just, this is just the way that I am. This is just the way that that I behave. And it does take kind of a sort of deeper level amount of work to kind of get to grips with. Why do I respond like that? Why do I feel like these in this, you know, in these situations, why must I have these these things, and, you know, I get clients coming in here daily, generally, later in life, you know, 30s 40s and 50s. But 99.9% of the time the issue comes from childhood. It’s just now that inner child or that behavior pattern, that belief that was set up when they were 3456, however old they were, is still playing out in adult life. Where you know, you’ve got different self awareness, you have more skills, you’re more independent. It’s just bizarre how this sense of self impacts our emotional well being, you know, it causes depression causes anxiety. neediness, impacts, relationships, impacts work, and impacts our children. But most of us haven’t got a clue this stuff is going on.

Suzanne Campbell 

Yeah, it’s indeed, masking. Yeah. Who didn’t show who we are? Who didn’t? Because we don’t think really enough. Yeah. And actually, that’s a lot of hard work is to do all of that in a messy work, and understand and actually begin to love yourself and appreciating who you are.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, I mean, I can’t even imagine, you know, trying to go get to that place. Okay, I’m good enough. As I am, or I’m good enough, there’s things about myself, I would like to improve or I’d like to change. But I’m good enough. That’s a difficult place for people. Because we’re really good at self criticism, aren’t we and knocking ourselves? Down? Yeah, I think it’s a really powerful place to go to to go. I am, I’m good enough as I am. I’m a I’m a work in progress and things I want to change. But the problem is, change is deeply uncomfortable, isn’t it?

Suzanne Campbell 

Uncomfortable. Now, that’s what I’m saying. It’s messy. It’s emotional. And it’s, it’s actually, you need a lot of grit to go down. Do you know, and if it’s not safe, that’s another reason why we can mask is that it’s not safe to be somebody else than who you are in a particular situation or environment. But the worst people you can mask from his mask and from yourself. And Hayden, who you really are. Because as I said at the beginning, no relationship with ourself is the only way we’ll have through our entire life. Yeah. So it’s better to be honest with yourself and have that self trust, and that, that reliability and that accountability to yourself.

Andy Griffiths 

So do you think we consciously control our sense of self? Or do you think we really don’t have that much control over it?

Suzanne Campbell 

I think it’s really interesting. I mean, that is a really good point. Because it’s so many, again, coming back to clients, there’s people who come in and sit down, and we’ll talk about it. And it’s like, so who are you? And for a lot of them, it’s the first time they’ve actually sat back and had that time just to think, Who am I and they’ll start by saying, I this job, I am a sister, I am a this. And they start reeling off all of these rules that they have in life. And it’s like, well, if you strip all that away, what are you left with? Because you could lose your job tomorrow? You You could be divorced, you could? There’s so many different things, we’ve got no control over. But if you start stripping that away, then who are you left with? And that’s more about your characteristics and your your behaviors and your traits and things like that. So who are you when you don’t have the flashcard anymore? Because you don’t have that job? Without that status symbol. Who are you? Yeah, that that is also it’s a lot of digging down to go rate. Okay. Who Anna?

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, I mean, my opinion is I think you can be consciously aware of the things that you do. But I don’t think at a conscious level you can continue to control it. So yeah, probably a bad analogy, but dieting you know, not a conscious effort. Kearney, this shouldn’t either. Avoid this and avoid that. And let’s be honest, conscious effort. Willpower lasts for a few weeks and you know, you’re on the sofa with a bar or dairy milk. So, I think it’s a deeper level piece of work and you know, the sense of self, certainly the behaviors that come out the back of that are unconscious, a bit like our blinking or breathing, or blood pressure or body temperature, you know that all that stuff, those taken care of automatically in the background. I think our behaviors they’re running, we have, we’re not aware they’re running, I think the secret is to be conscious to, at a conscious level to become aware of the behaviors that you run that you don’t like. So you can start to reprogram them. And that’s normally through some kind of therapy or re reprocessing of stuff. But kind of the read The reason I’ve asked this question is because I think maybe some people will be listening to this going, you know, I’ve really tried to change who I am or control who I am. But it’s, there’s another part of you running this subconscious. Yeah, this subconscious behavior that you’re not even aware of is, is running, it’s just there in the background, a bit like software. And it’s almost like that software needs a patch, it needs, it needs an update. But to make change, first of all, you consciously have to be aware there’s something about yourself or something that you do or a certain way that you feel, in certain situations that you want to change. That’s got to be the starting point.

Suzanne Campbell 

Absolutely. And even if it’s not necessarily about the outside world, and it’s more about your inner inner world, because you’re an inner turmoil, because you don’t think you’re good enough, there is sort of any sort of perceived lack in that area. Yeah. Then then it can come from that aspect as well.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah. But the thing is, as you know, we resist change. Yeah, we fiercely resist change. I mean, the amygdala in our brain is hardwired, to avoid change, because it’s it brings uncertainty and in into our lives, you know, the brain likes, likes order. And why do we resist change? Because we’re afraid? Yeah, we don’t we don’t like the unknown, do we? I mean, our, our sense of selves, our beliefs, our behavior patterns might be unhealthy. And we’ve probably been running them for it for decades. But we know what we’re getting good and bad. It’s familiar. It might not be healthy. But it’s familiar, isn’t it? I can look back traits, feelings, responses, triggers, that would happen to me. And if you said back to me, then you know, right, there’s a wand here, and I can wave it and war take that response away. And we’ll replace it with this response. Part of me goes, Oh, that sounds good. Because another part again, well hang on a minute, what will that be like? Is that Is that a good thing? Is is that a bad thing? Changes just disruptive, full stop. And the other thing is changes loss will be changed something we have to lose something don’t worry. Yeah. So you were talking earlier about, you know, I’m on this version of myself, and I’ve left that person. But with that, that version we’re behind, we have to deal with the loss of that version, that status, you know, company car, that title, that house, that family set up that relationship, that financial status,

Suzanne Campbell 

but it doesn’t always need to be a loss, some things that can actually be intentional, letting go. Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah, because sometimes you’re like, actually, this is someplace and I am somewhere that I don’t want to be anymore, because it’s not good for me, either mentally, emotionally or physically. So sometimes it’s more conscious letting go. And I think we have a bit more sense of control when you do that. Also, that that does feed into your sense of self to say, I actually, this isn’t serving me and I’m not happy here. So yeah, but you,

Andy Griffiths 

you know, I hear it in the therapy room all the time. You know, people are like, I’m in this. I’m really unhappy in my job, or in my relationship. I want to leave. Okay. So what’s the problem? I’m afraid to leave. Why? Because I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know what life will be like, when I do that. So we stay trapped in pain, because it’s familiar. Absolutely. And the biggest, and it’s almost like, I will do it. When I feel completely comfortable about making the change. And the reality is I am going to feel comfortable.

Suzanne Campbell 

And you’re just never going to not have that fear. The fear is inherently there to keep you safe. Yeah, absolutely. So you’re always going to have a level of fear that it’s their action taking rather than thinking about Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah,

Andy Griffiths 

change is difficult. And human nature is we avoid difficulty We’ll stay, we’ll stay in pain to avoid difficulty. It’s bizarre, but it’s we’re so driven by emotions. Yeah, feelings and is any his familiar? Okay, so there might be people listening to this, we’ve already given some examples of sort of redundancy and children and things like this, but it’d be good if we could just take a few minutes to talk about the things that can happen in life, that bring our sense of self into question. Because it’s easy to go, loss of job. Loss of, of relationship, but there’s a there’s a lot more than than that. I mean, probably the most recent thing was the pandemic, you know, in my lifetime, and hopefully, it never happens again. My whole way of life, my whole sense of self, to a certain extent was taken away from me. I couldn’t go see my friends, I couldn’t go and do my job, I couldn’t run my business. I couldn’t get up in the morning and do the things that I used to do that take for granted. I think we all went through that period of the first few weeks ago, this is great. Yes, Netflix, takeaways, not really doing much. But actually, we all weirdly started to lose part of our identities. And I know there’s those people that breeze through it and loved it. But there’s those that really struggled, maybe, you know, they did lose their job, or they lost their health, or they had to change their career, they lost parents or, you know, brothers and sisters or you know, even even children even take my mind to another place. The people that worked on the frontline in the NHS, you know, the ambulance drivers and stuff, you know, it a very different experience, a very different experience to us, but their sense of self must have changed almost from like, I help people to I feel helpless. Helping people now the amount of people who have left that profession, post COVID Is, is crazy. So yeah, you know, talking about the kinds of things that can change sense of self. So for me, one of the big ones I can remember, was going from primary school up to secondary school. Wow. So I’m originally from the Midlands, Birmingham, big city, I was very lucky, I went to a very tranquil Primary School in a in a in a lovely little village. And then when I went up to secondary school, it was out of the village, it was a school with over 1500 kids. So I went from the school from a couple of 100 kids to 1500 kids. And actually, what happened for me was, I don’t know if it’s the same here in Scotland. But when you come to leave school, primary school to go to secondary school, we had like options, you’d have a list of schools that you would put, you know, your preferred your first, your second, your third. And we did that and all of my friends got the schools that they picked. And I got none of the schools, they were really far away, you know, 10 plus miles away. There was three local schools to me, I didn’t get into any of them. So my mom decided you’re not going to any of them. I’m gonna homeschool you until we sort this out. And I can’t remember how long it was. But I reckon I was out of school for probably six months. And it was to and fro in and then eventually the school that I wanted to go to agreed to take me. So I came into first year senior school late. And I appeared in this huge school. I mean, like the fifth years who you know, were 1516 looked like blokes to me. They were huge, you know that mustaches. And I’m like we felt really intimidated. But also on top of that, coming in six months later into that I had a few friends there that I kind of knew. But what actually happened was because it all happened very quickly. In my school, we used to wear white shirts, blue ties, but because it happened very quickly, I think like there was a call and within a day or two I was in school, I only had a light blue shirt, which I wore for the first day, which happened to be the same color shirt of another school down the road who were the arch enemies of the school. So all the school when this guy has just appeared he’s wearing a blue shirt. He’s come from day one as a buff down the road. He’s the enemy. So immediately I became a target of a gun. ration and bullying and all the rest of it. So my sense of self change from this whole schools, normally I get to go and play with my friends, and it’s a safe place and to, oh my god, you know, hostility fights bullying, the world’s not a safe place. So going up through that, for me was was definitely I completely lost my sense of self during that, and having come from a place of being a bit of a need to be liked, because of what happened to earlier in life. And then you go into an environment going, Oh, my God, nobody likes me. In fact, everyone wants to kill me. That caused massive problems. And that went all the way through senior school for me. But yeah, I mean, you you’ve probably got your own perspective on situations that can make you question your sense of self. I mean, what do you think?

Suzanne Campbell 

Yeah, there’s, I mean, those ones are, that must be such a hard experience Sunday to be Yeah, it was to go from a quite an intensive trauma to another one effectively, that impacted your daily life, because you had no option but to go to school and return to home school. And so that must have been quite to a certain extent, you’re having those protective mechanisms around you that you would have as coping mechanisms. And as you said, one of the biggest coping mechanisms that many of us develop through trauma is, is becoming people pleasers, which is, I mean, that’s a topic in itself, isn’t it off?

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah. And it’s one we will cover. But there’s an episode coming up very soon about

Suzanne Campbell 

your, your rates, there’s so many different experiences, both negative and positive, that can shape who who we are, a lot of it, again, comes into the ego brain. And this phenomena and then the next thing until somebody calls you out and gives you a different label to see. No, you’re not. Yeah, and then that self doubt kicks in. Yeah. So you would have been a make everybody happy and everything you turn up when the wrong color shirt, and actually suddenly your public enemy number one,

Andy Griffiths 

I might as well have painted a huge target. For going here’s the bullseye. Yeah, it was yeah, it was, and kids can be brutal. They spin. Okay, so that was that there was bullying. But it wasn’t just bullying, it was just this general, you’re not one of us. But bullying. I mean, talk about that, whether it be at school or in the workplace, your sense of self completely and utterly changes. You know, to, I’m not likable, I don’t deserve to be treated well, you know, the world is not a safe place. There’s so many things that can happen to us. And what you don’t realize is okay, what happened to me secondary school that was I’m not gonna say how many years ago, but it was enough years ago. But there’s still a part of me, that’s, you know, that’s still there that still needs healed, you know, pops up now and again, to remind me of things and, you know, I’m very open about my anxieties and stuff like that, that very much had a part to play in that. So you know, these things are happening to us, they impact our physical health impacts. Mental health. So for me, you know, started with schooling, and you know, parents divorced in a very young age. But it could be losing a grandparent or a parent or a brother, or, you know, being kicked out of school or failing to get into university. There’s so many different ways. You’ve been in a car accident you’ve been assaulted. The list is almost endless, isn’t it? You know, that, and this stuff can happen to us tomorrow. And our sense of self so immediately, gonna get changed, isn’t it? Yeah. No, I’m looking at this cost of living crisis that we’re in at the moment.

Suzanne Campbell 

It’s awful. Yeah, it’s impacted negatively, but especially particular groups of Yeah, heaps of friends and communities.

Andy Griffiths 

And you imagine being the mom or the dad or the family that suddenly now can’t buy the kids toys or trainers, because they’re just trying to keep eating or not to keep food in their belly. What does that person end up thinking about themselves? Going to that is going to pollute your sense of self, isn’t it? I’m a bad parent. I’ve let my children down through no fault of their own. In fact, a lot of people right now are probably working harder than they’ve ever worked in their lives, just to keep going. So you know, that’s going to affect your sense of self. But on the flip side, when you get married, that’s going to change your sense of self as you know you’ve gone from or a partner or to a husband or a wife? What does that label now involve?

Suzanne Campbell 

So many labels it I suppose it depends on where your self esteem is to begin with, if it’s low, you’re not in a good place. Yeah. And that applies to almost every situation. And that’s why knowing yourself and to a certain extent, getting to that stage where you accept yourself and begin to eventually love yourself, is having that self esteem. And Gary Vee did a really good podcast, it was just a snippet recently quit a parent had asked him about, you know, kids, their teen are coming up to this stage in the internet is unsafe, and schools unsafe and everything’s unsafe? How can I protect them? And his answer was build their self esteem. If you start building self esteem from a young age, then it does make life so much easier. Because you know that you don’t need that external validation, you’ve got internal acceptance of who you are. So you stop looking for external validation. And it becomes a bit easier through your life. And that’s a big thing that you need to start to start building. It’s never too late to start building your self esteem. And it’s not egotistic. And it’s not wearing masks. It’s just actually having the confidence and in who you are, and as you said, if there’s aspects you don’t like about it, because, you know, yeah, there’s always aspects we don’t like about each about yourself, isn’t it, of course, and just starting to do the work. And there’s, I mean, how many 1000s Millions of self development books out there, there’s some, there’s some really incredible ones, like the medical model, and that’s transformed so many lives. That just so many different books out there, the parent of No, there’s so many different books out there. But what that allows you to do is become the version of you that you want to be and although I was joking about being a version 17 I think I’m genuinely am about there, because I’ve been through so much. And every time I sort of evolve, leave a bit behind leave either a role or a label or some part of me that no longer serves me, and then upgrade again, and I’m no bit by no means perfect. Do you know and I don’t think it ever will be but I accept that about myself that I’m, as you said, a work in progress.

Andy Griffiths 

Two things that you said. Now I’d like to go back to and the first absolutely 100% Yes. Self esteem and sense of self are into you know, they’re tied together. They’re the one of the same thing on the if you’ve got poor self esteem, you don’t particularly like yourself, you’re constantly reflecting on past versions of stuff that you’ve done guilt or you carry shame. You know, the bullying the you got the job, you didn’t get the rejection, you got whatever it may be, is right. Trying to change your sense of self while your self esteem is on the floor is not going to work as

Suzanne Campbell 

you think you’ve got to start somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Griffiths 

So you start by looking at things that can lift your self esteem a bit. And maybe that’s something we could talk about in a future episode. Definitely. I was way Oh, one Yeah. 100%. But yeah, that’s the really big point. The other thing you said that I found really interesting was when you refer to Gary Vee and I completely agree with what he says but obviously him been a digital influencer. I’m fascinated how sort of social media and this digital age that we now find ourselves in really impacts our sense of self because it’s very easy you know, I’m not knocking Gary Vee up I think he puts some good content out there but it’s very easy to sit watching the screen going so right for you to say that may you know you we get these influencers that encourage us to present the perfect version of ourselves to the world as they present their perfect version of themselves to you on Instagram or Tiktok whatever

Suzanne Campbell 

else filters Yeah, we live in a filtered life and I’m I don’t know if anybody knows me I live a very unfiltered life much too. Sometimes my kids dismay, but I do not conform with any filters it’s just like water is what it is for me I don’t agree with because you can filter your life just the same as you can filter the camera can you be I don’t Snapchat stuff to make you different than what you are. Smooth out the skin smooth out the wrinkles and then to the extent that sometimes some, some people that I know put can post a picture and I don’t even recognize them because wasn’t so far removed of who they actually are. But the cabinet, they say the cabinet doesn’t lie in the skin since it does. But reality doesn’t lie, you can argue with reality. But at the end of the day, if you don’t love yourself without a filter, it becomes a very difficult situation to be on.

Andy Griffiths 

Let’s be honest, people only post their highlight reels that go into the gym or the holiday, they don’t show you the chaos, that normally runs under under the surface. The problem is, you know, whether a young mind or your self esteem is low, you look at these people, that leads us into comparisons. And when we look at those people, it’s very easy to feel inadequate. I should be like them, and I, I can’t be. So my opinion is social media as good as it can be. Equally is as bad. And if your self esteem doesn’t flow, when you look at that person and go, what’s the point of never going to be like them?

Suzanne Campbell 

And that’s a really important point, because comparison is absolutely the thief of joy. Oh, my god, yeah. When you, when you have your you build your self esteem, joy comes back into your life, because you become more grateful for different things that you have, or that you, you know, that you’ve experienced. And that gratitude really does lift the joy element in your life. But when we start comparing ourselves to other people, we just own joy is removed, because then that’s when you get to the you get into other sort of traits, like jealousy and things that actually don’t serve us. I mean, there is no point in getting jealous about something because we just don’t have it. And it’s accepting, again, accepting the reality. Byron Katie says, you know, you can argue with reality 100% of the time, but you’re always going to be wrong. Yeah. So why actually terminate yourself was actually going down that comparison. And that took a long time for me a long, messy time for me to get to the end of because when I went through my divorce, it shattered my belief of what a normal family should look like it shattered a whole lot of who I believed to be society rules about successful marriages and a successful person. And it shattered so much of my beliefs, they took me a long while to come back. Because again, I was comparing myself to different people, and to different and I was like, I can compete on day, but it’s actually not helping me at all. And it was that ability to actually switch off that comparison. It’s like, I’ll be a cheerleader for you instead to go. That’s a great, that’s amazing that you have where you are. But equally, I’m loving life where I am, because I’m happy where I am. So there is hard.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, I can imagine. So the first thing is recognizing the the things that you’re doing, whether that is I am sitting Doom scrolling for hours, watching Tic TOCs or whatever it is comparing myself to these people, or, you know, I’m looking at the Joneses across the road who seem to have the perfect you know, 2.4 children, the dog, and that their life looks amazing to me behind closed doors, it could be it could be Bedlam, you just never know. But I suppose you need to get to this place in your mind, this place in life, where you’re ready to start to mark this distinct break from their behavior. And from the past, you know, like that metaphorical there needs to be a line drawn in the sand.

Suzanne Campbell 

And I think a lot of people know to call on it like the awakening isn’t that weakening moment? Yeah. But you suddenly realize this is all subjective. Society’s norms are subjective. They’re not actual hard and fast rules are not laws and actually taking that step and sort of deconstructing everything so that you can actually put your pieces back to be who you want to be. and live the life that you want. Like I say, I have an unfiltered life I do a lot of unusual activities, shall we say? And the other day, it was one of these things where it was just driving from thing to thing to thing and I had a lot on and a lot of exciting things on that really talked up my emotional well being and one of them I say ah, you know, sometimes I just try and fit in too much. And my my youngest was sitting in the car, I was taking her somewhere and she just turned to me. You fit in. Well. Why do you think you try and fit in university and fit in there? No at that point in time, she was sort of gesturing to my clothes. And I was gonna link it in full length linen dress. unmatching tartan hat, I paid a dime when t boots. And I say, oh, no, no, not buy my clothes and my sale, just my sheduled to fill. But I do know it was a bit of a laughing realize we’re talking about different things. But loving that unfiltered life, both as the face you present to the world without your mask, as your authentic self. As well as being comfortable that you are doing the right thing with good intentions, that fulfills what you want to do. Because fulfillments such a huge part of our life. If we’re not fulfilled, then we aren’t going to always take engaged and then jealousy in comparison, does come into the fold.

Andy Griffiths 

So for me, like when clients come in for therapy, I call it that person needs to be a threshold, they need to be at the point of I am sick and tired of this feeling this behavior, these patterns of behavior that keep happening in my life. I can see it, I recognize it. I don’t know how to change it, I need some help. Because if you’re not, if you don’t have that awareness, you’re not ready to bring about change, you’re unable to bring about change. Do you think? You know a lot of people, we’ve talked about a lot of things that can happen that sort of make you question your sense of self? Do you think these things change your personality? And what I mean by Do you think they change your personality? Do? Do they make you cynical? Do they make you jealous? Do they make you resentful? Do they bring out not necessarily good qualities in you? If you

Suzanne Campbell 

don’t have that sense of self in love that version of you? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Don’t get me wrong, see, see within. I know it’s almost a tangent. But within that version of yourself, you can still have different flavors, your overall values don’t change. But you can have different flavors of that version, depending on the rule here. And so, for example, when I’m in my kitchen rule, I am one flavor of that. But fundamentally, my values and characteristics don’t change, I’m still being true to myself. But the way that I operate might be slightly different. Same as when I’m run a therapist role is very different to the person who I am when I’m on the tap dancing, and then very different to swimming. So when I have a group of friends that are loud and boisterous, and, you know, and we go, and we have a lot of fun, but I’ve also got a very quiet swimming group. And it’s just about balancing those needs. We’re all human, we all have particular needs that we need fulfilled. And it’s alright to be different flavors of that version of yourself. It’s not being untrue, it’s not being double faced, it’s just making sure that you fulfill that need in that particular time. And honoring what your needs are, and making sure that they are met.

Andy Griffiths 

So I suppose you know, if you’re listening to this, and your, you know, some of this resonating with you, what are some of the signs and things that you should be looking out for, to sort of go hang on a minute, I might need to do some work here, I may need to recognize some things. Because one of the things that I felt, and by the way, I’m still very much a work in progress, is the first thing that I recognized was, I felt stuck. You know, I didn’t really feel I could move forward in personal growth. You know, while I was really struggling to sort of reevaluate where I was, I didn’t know if I wanted to go that way. That way, I had no idea what I wanted. So very much for me, it felt like my sense of self was diluted. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that sense of feeling stuck or a little bowl

Suzanne Campbell 

often. And that’s, as you said, That’s sometimes the catalyst for change. Or when you reach that threshold of I can’t go on and I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired. I can’t go on like this anymore. Other people have a almost like Groundhog experience. And that’s what we’ve seen about either evolve or revolve you either grow in a particular trajectory, which is great if you know where you’re going. And that’s another topic in itself, isn’t it? Or you evolve and you’re just going round and round and round in circles doing the same thing consistently. And if you’re happy doing that there is nothing wrong with that. If you are in a good place, and everything’s rosy, and that’s where you want to be because that’s where you really get fulfilled. That’s The no everybody needs to keep growing. But as long as one of the biggest changes for me when I was stuck was embarking on the Miracle Morning. And the Miracle Morning is a book written by Halle Oldroyd really gets you to look at different aspects of your life and start to do a self audit, and take and that gives you a mechanism and a structure and a framework for for starting to make change. That was a really big catalyst. As was sorts of other things about a decade ago, was Ted Talks, Ted Talks, you know, saved me, as well as the CFP and very, very supportive parents, and people that you can trust, you know, that inner circle that people talk about. But yes, actually sitting down, and sometimes it’s that realization of, I’m not comfortable, I’m not living an authentic life. And I’m not sure what I’m doing anymore. Kind of sparks a lot of these thought processes.

Andy Griffiths 

So what can we do then to improve our sense of self? If you’re listening to this? And you’re like, okay, yeah, I recognize Jack, Jack, Jack, I’m taking a lot of these boxes, what are some things that people can do to help themselves?

Suzanne Campbell 

So it was probably a case of understanding who you are, when we could probably put together a PDF when this due to sheer sheer weather, and I’ll have a list of like, sort of recommended reading, that is no one right answer. Because we are so unique, and so different. And there’s different aspects of our life that we want to do. Some of the things that we can point people towards outside of therapy is the field of life, where you almost do an audit as to where you are in each aspects of your life. I call it level 10, living in some of my coursework, where it’s what is my level 10 life look like, for 12 different aspects of your life. And then you do a sort of gut feel check in once a month to go, this is where I am. So yeah, my finances are attained, which is fine, my personal relationships are two, which is fine. My spirituality or my emotional health is like a five. And then what started looking at the things you want to improve, and a lot of it, because then you need to be self, you need to be accountable to prove and prove it. You need to be reliable, again, to yourself. So there’s different aspects of that, that actually starts building trust within you. And when you become a new trust yourself, then all the other things start to it’s about taking baby steps. Yeah,

Andy Griffiths 

I think for me, one of the first things I had to do was learn to how to be on my own, you know, be happy in your own execute company, because, you know, we were talking about earlier in life with divorce and then having to be liked, and then going into a school environment that was initially quite hostile. Being alone felt very much alone for for a lot. And it was really uncomfortable. You know, you want people around you, you wanted a sense of security, and sometimes you connect to energies that weren’t good for you. But he was like, Well, you know, better than, than nothing. So I think learning to be alone is huge, and helping him move forwards.

Suzanne Campbell 

Absolutely. What I would sort of just slightly tweak it to see is learning to be alone, but not lonely. Yeah, there’s definitely isn’t that Yeah. Personally, I love being alone. And I’m never ever lonely. I’ve never lonely when I’m alone. And that’s a sort of a panacea point for me to be I love going off on adventures and having solo adventures. And actually just looking after my needs, because we’re spread so thin sometimes through like, Oh, me, especially after COVID and people are working harder and longer hours. Then sometimes you are straight, really, really friendly. And that ability to just come back to self and go, what is it I need? Like, okay, I need connection with other people. I need no engagement and boisterous or I need a bit of solitude, especially if you’re an ambivert who flips between sort of introvert and extrovert. You know, quite what is it I need and looking at what you need an honor and what you need and going doing.

Andy Griffiths 

Because I think if you can learn to be okay, in your own company. That’s really powerful. Because if you’re uncomfortable being alone, you’ll stay in situations that you know aren’t good for you. Because it’s familiar, because, as we talked about earlier in the episode, change is frightening. We resist change. So yeah, I think there’s a lot of power in being happy with just who you are and being your own best friend and that helps you make better decisions. But I think the the second thing for me was defining the things that I liked. And the things that I didn’t like that really literally sitting down with a pen and a piece of paper like this, I don’t like that. And that includes things that you do things that you feel things you’ve done, you know, all of these things, but creating a list of all that stuff. Because that gives you data. But the hardest thing, the hardest, hardest thing out of all these points, was learning to say no. That, you know, underneath boundaries really difficult when you haven’t got a good sense of self or your self esteem.

Suzanne Campbell 

When you do when you have that self worth to think actually I am worth having my needs met over somebody else. Again, that’s our whole self it is. And that is a really great point.

Andy Griffiths 

Yeah, absolutely right. learning to say no, I had somebody told me, I can’t remember who it was. And they told me a great thing once where, especially for people that maybe had anxiety or low self esteem, saying no, is really difficult, you know, you end up going Yeah, yeah, I’ll do that. And you’re like, why than hell? Did I agree? To do that? There’s a really great little hack that you can do. Which is rather than saying no, you say to the person, say, Oh, could you do me a favor? Is there any chance you could do this for me on Tuesday or whatever? You know, they’re asking you, you say, Ah, I’m really sorry, I can’t do it on Tuesday for you. But I could do it on Sunday. And nine times out of 10. They go, Oh, don’t worry about it. It’s absolutely fine. And you’ve not said no, you’ve said I can’t do that. But I could do this. And most times, they’ll not take the alternative. And it’s it’s if you’re just gently learning to say no, it’s much easier to do that and go, No, that’s a great tip. Yeah, it can’t do that. But I can

Suzanne Campbell 

just give you that space to pause, reflect. And another really good one to sort of pause is to see, or thanks very much for thinking about me. Actually, I’m not sure what my calendar is looking like at the moment. I’ll get back to Yeah. And it just gives you that breathing space, you don’t yet have that confidence just to say no, because no is a word on itself an answer on itself, isn’t it? 100%. But it’s having that confidence to be able to see, no, I’m sorry, I’m not doing that. And even after I said that, just No, no, I’m sorry, I’m not sorry. It’s just the norm. It’s not something I can do just,

Andy Griffiths 

it’s this inner confidence. The self esteem boost, all comes from you. Being able to regulate your emotions, to be able to recognize what you’re feeling at the moment, not necessarily job with the initial labels that you put on them. And learn how to self regulate, to soothe yourself in those moments, I’m not making a decision right now I’m full of anxiety, I’m uncertain. You know, I can’t trust my thoughts, because of the way that I’m feeling. You know, it’s the all of these things is learning more about yourself? Why do I feel these things in these situations? Why do I make these decisions when I’m feeling like this? You know, learn to sort of self validate and let go of that need for external validation? I’ll say yes, because I need them to like me.

Suzanne Campbell 

It’s almost a pinnacle, isn’t it this sense of self because everything sort of else falls off roundabout that we’ve talked about huge variety of potential topics. And yeah, they all fall off of the back of sense of self. Because it is it’s a journey that we’re on is, it’s never going to end because life will never stop giving us new opportunities, or new challenges. And some of them will see and some of them will just hit us from left field. So we don’t get a lot of time to sort of build up any knowledge or awareness about that aspect of life. So yeah, sense of self is, is key and will continue to grow through your life.

Andy Griffiths 

I think the temptation is if you know any of this resonates with you, you’ll immediately want to go I need to fix everything. And my advice will be just pick one thing and keep working on that because you’re not going to get it right first time you’re going to have to work at it, work at it work at it. There’ll be multiple attempts, you will fail. You’re not get it right, but just pick one thing and focus on that. And once you get that mastered, then move on to something else. You know, you see these people doing these massive, right that’s it. I’m changing their job. I’m going to the gym five days a week. I’m gonna eat healthily. I’m doing this I’m doing that and it’s just not sustainable. But if you can pick one personality trait you would like to change habits or routine Um, you can recognize particular situations where you’re triggered and you get responses. Breaking that down looking at the patterns of your behaviors, because there’s patterns to every behavior, some of it can be quite subtle. But if you can actually freeze frame and break that behavior down and start to work, you know, one of the best advices, for those that can is go and get some help go and get some therapy. But it all starts with recognizing what’s the one thing that I’m going to start with. And then and then moving forward with that.

Suzanne Campbell 

There’s a really good suggestions. One of the other ones that I I encourage my clients to see, and actually anybody at work for any of these is just write a list and commit to yourself to do one thing that brings you and you alone joy in that day. So commit to doing one thing per day, that brings you joy, you know, that might be five minutes of quietly reading a book, it might be, it may be

Andy Griffiths 

a unifying you know, on your bike path. Absolutely,

Suzanne Campbell 

yeah. And it doesn’t need to be for a half hour or an hour, it can be something that just do something for you. That doesn’t require anybody else. And it’s just looking at fulfilling your needs. Because when you start looking at fulfilling your needs, and then you start to experience a bit of joy in your life, Joy is the antidote isn’t it to xiety and to anger and it just gives you that space in your life where actually, your mind potentially can start crying and down. And getting that space is enough one at a time,

Andy Griffiths 

all of these activities will put you into your prefrontal cortex and the prefrontal frontal cortex helps us regulate emotions, and helps us to think clearly, before we wrap up, I will kind of put a caveat on a lot of what we said in this episode today, because this is very much about personal growth and mastering your mind and your emotions. So many times I find that especially people that are in partnerships, or you know, colleagues or a brother and sister, some kind of relation ship dynamic when one person starts to work on themselves, and the other person doesn’t, is so easy for resentment to creep in. And what I would say is, you know, you should never feel guilty for wanting to to improve yourself, not everybody around you is going to agree or understand with what you’re doing. But if you’re doing it with good intentions, because you want to better improve yourself. And I think in the early stage, when you’re getting started, keep it to yourself, because people are very quick to to criticize stuff that they don’t understand. And if you get a criticism or a knock at a very early stage, it’s going to dent your confidence and you’re probably likely to screw up leave it I’m not doing this it’s it’s uncomfortable. I think it’s very powerful. If you’re in a you know, whether it is with colleagues or you know, you’re in an organization or with a partner or a friend or stuff, if you can work in cooperation, so you understand what you’re doing that that really powerful, but I have seen lots of examples where one person in a relationship starts to do self improvement. And very quickly resentment creeps in. And you can get judged criticized and that will do one of two things, you’ll either go right I’m just going to go back to default. Or it starts to cause issues greater greater issues. So yeah, I think that’s an important point to hold across

Suzanne Campbell 

is very important is again, you only you know what’s best for you somebody else can’t tell you what’s best for you because they will have vested interests and their version of face and their definition of best how they view best is going to be completely different to yours. So it is very difficult because you might be at threshold and ready to change and that other individuals not because they don’t see anything wrong with it because they think everything’s strain great prospects this was completely different. So yeah

Andy Griffiths 

it’s been a it’s been good during this deep deep dive into this series. But I thought we were gonna it is yeah, some of you may be listening to this guy. And you know, I really would like to take a deeper look at this and make changes. We will attach a PDF to this episode with some really great questions that you can sit down and have a good think about and and write about. The other thing is as well, we would love to hear from you. If you’ve listened to this and you’ve recognized something in yourself where you’d like to ask us a question, or something’s come out of this you’d like us to cover in a future episode. The email is Hello tickety Boo podcast.co.uk Drop us an email or leave us to comment if you’re on YouTube or whichever platform you’re watching on, and we will endeavor to get back to you and uncover subjects, but we would love to hear from people that pick up from this and run with it. So, in the next episode, we’re going to be talking all things anxiety. So our sense of self can definitely lead to way too much anxiety. So we’re going to do a bit of a deep dive into anxiety in the next episode, but Suzanne, thanks, it’s been great talking about it today. Hope you’ve enjoyed this subject as well. We’ll be back very soon on tickety boo with with anxiety. Thanks very much for listening.

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